Tango v. Milonga :: Interview with Sebastian Piana

I ran across this Tango-L post from Alberto Gesualdi back in 2003.

Bruno wrote:

Milonga is the precursor of Tango these were originally written in a 2 x 4 notation and changed to 4 x 8. The piano scores left from early tangos and milongas proved this point.

Alberto Gesualdi (myself) would like to say this:

It is not very clear the date of start for tango music in Argentina . Some tangos like El Entrerriano are supposed to be from 1896 .

There is sometimes a confusion when using the word milonga , because it is considered as belonging exclusively to tango and being born within the tango environment.

There was a milonga campera or milonga surenia, sung by the peasants whith their guitars. This milonga was usually the same base music, and the changes were made by the singers , with the content of what they say . More or less like bards telling the news or the folklore tradition.

Sebastian Piana [b. circa 1900? d. July 17, 1994] is generally considered as the first musician to write a milonga ciudadana or milonga portenia, in 1932, when he made Milonga Sentimental . I include below part of the last interview made to Piana while he was living. The complete interview is at www.todotango.com.ar

Regarding the milonga subject as well as many other things related to tango , the words "always" . "sure" "certainty" are a bit dangerous to use, since tango origins are still very misty.

Warm regards

Alberto Gesualdi

Buenos Aires


Interview with Sebastian Piana (fragment) [For entire interview click here.]


- Do you share the opinion, held by the Bates brothers, that tango (in its development as musical genre) takes elements from candombe, the habañera and the milonga?

- Certainly. The habañera was almost the mother of tango. The milonga, on the other hand, belonged to country music, what today is known as folklore. Later the milonga arrived in town, but it was not yet that milonga of which I was the forerunner: it was a rural milonga, sung by gauchos, by that country people that, sometimes, improvised....

- Was it the milonga that Gardel and Razzano sang?

- It was a country milonga, that the Gardel-Razzano duo sang as well. The Argentine and Uruguayan payadores (itinerant singers) that had the ability to improvise lyrics: they were naturally born-poets that, among them, they ad lib rivaled to the beat of a milonga. It would not be strange that the habañera, a Spanish air well-known in Cuba, blended with black music and took advantage of the candombe small drum. Later this spread all over America. All this produces the musical origin of tango in Argentina. But tango is a Spanish word. The tanguillo is a Spanish dance.

- Originally the milonga was a music for strings, was percussion added in Cuba?

- I guess so. The Negroes, that have a great intuition and a rhythmic sense, made "their" habañera. This seems to have spread throughout America. That would be the origin of the early tango beat.

- Can we talk of a " Piana's Revolution " as far as milonga is concerned?

- It is, simply, the change from a milonga -which was regarded as belonging to the south and the Pampas, without dance or danced in privacy, and dug by gauchos and payadores-, to the milonga porteña , owed to Maffia and to me. They were melodically quite alike.

The renewal, the porteña and suburban milonga, is owed to a request made by Rosita Quiroga to Homero Manzi. We had given to her a tango that she would sing. However, she asked for a milonga.

Astonished, Manzi told me; "Rosita asked me a milonga". I answered him: but if all milongas are nearly the same thing, very much alike, because of that people improvise on them...."Look, Sebastian, I don't understand anything about milongas", Manzi answered to me. Then I told Homero that he should call me in two days, to see if I was able to devise something. During that time I had in my head the idea of a new milonga. I knew its beat because I had written a previous one so that Josi Gonzalez Castillo (Catulo Castillo's father) would write lyrics to it.

I had the need to make different milongas; and these were: they kept the simplicity of the beat, but with a defined musical shape, as if they were tangos to be sung, but without losing the milonga's essence.

When Manzi called me, precisely in two days' time, I already have composed "Milonga Sentimental", whose music only took me half an hour (the one I had prepared for Gonzalez Castillo's milonga had taken me a whole day). It was not the everlasting milonga, the one improvised by the payadores...

As Manzi, a magnificent poet, confessed to me that he did not understand about milongas, I thought for myself: will he understand mine? He understood it. He arrived to my place on a Monday, he picked up the sheet music and, the next morning, he had the lyric already written. With the lyrics added I began to like the music more. Until then I was more satisfied with the one I had made for Gonzalez Castillo.
So "Milonga Sentimental" was born. It was my second milonga, which turned out to be the first milonga porteña known.

- Catulo's father, finally did he add lyrics to your first milonga?

- No, no. It seems he forgot about it (laughs). He was a great friend of mine and of my father's.




For the complete interview, click here.

Flor de Monserrat

Biagi's "Flor de Monserrat" remains my favorite milonga...I've posted these before, but they are so beautiful, here there are again...

Javier Rodriguez & Geraldine Rojas ::



Adrian & Amanda Costa ::

Sunday morning wake up milonga

Nearly as good as a stiff cup of coffee or espresso...lightning fast Thierry Le Coq and Delphine Blanco...thanks to Ron for this find...



DISCLAIMER:
Note that this is "BIG" Milonga, Milonga Grande, and is not suitable for dancing socially. The discerning and skilled leader could dissect the various elements of the dance, and adapt some of them for the social dance floor, by appropriately "dialing back" the chosen element to be much, much smaller.

Flor de monserrat :: revisited :: Adrian & Amanda Costa

I've posted this one before...but I ran across it again over at Clint's blog Hybrid Tango...

My goal is to be able to dance milonga like this...toned down to the social level...but that damn traspie side step...that one is a killer to lead...I still can't get it...

Note how liso they are...muy liso...

Monday morning wake up milonga...

Better than coffee to get your ass in gear...

What I love to wake up to...some good, strong, milonga...

Just posted on YouTube...Mamié Sancy & Carlitos Espinoza...Milonga demo at "Les Lundis Tango au Bateau" milonga. Paris 25/02/2008

The song in both videos below is "No Hay Tierra Como la Mia" by Francisco Canaro.



It looks like there is a Thierry LeCocq influence, although I am not sure who influenced whom. Or perhaps they were both influenced by some other teacher.

Either way, it is some very good milonga dancing. Very good.

Here are Thierry LeCocq et Delphine Blanco again...

PrettyFriggin'FastMilonga :: Asfalt Tango by Fanfare Ciocarlia

This one is not so fast, but 6 minutes long...sustained milonga dancing that will have the sweat squirting off of you like a fountain...

Superfuckingfast Milonga :: Milonga Para As Missoes by Renato Borghetti

Granted...it's an accordian, not a bandoneon, but I still love it...dancing to it is like runnning the 100 yard dash...and I like that it starts out so slow...

Milonga :: El Flaco y Silvina

Dancing a milonga at Porteño y Bailarín in Buenos Aires...Fransisco Canaro's "Milongon"...

I've had the distinct pleasure of dancing with both of them...Silvina in private lessons in Atlanta...and dancing next to El Flaco (Dany Garcia) at Salon Canning. It's an interesting effect, when you go to BsAs and see the "famous" people - it's like they are movie stars. In addition to El Flaco, I saw Facundo y Kely Posadas, and spent a week learning from Gustavo y Giselle Anne.

Tango Technique :: The traspie side step in milonga

Here are Javier y Andrea again...demo'ing a milonga...note the traspie side step...from time stamp 0:32 to 0:36



He also leads it right from the get go with Geraldine Rojas in this demo to Biagi's "Flor de Monserrat"


I still have issues leading that...I can lead it "to the beat"...but when I try to lead it traspie, I lose the follower. One of my teachers told me the key is to uplead it...then she has no choice but to move her trailing foot quickly to stay with me...

Any comments?

Tango::Superfast Traspie - Honestly

Thierry LeCocq y Delphine Blanco...very fast feet...dancing a milonga demo....to Francisco Canaro's "No Hay Tierra Como La Mia"...

I think I may have posted this a couple of weeks ago...if so, here it is again...

Tanda Structure & Milongas

I am dj'ing our community milonga tonight - bringing my big stereo system to the Masonic Temple in Glenwood Springs to fill the room with mono sound. There is something about this though, it does seem to sound better, fuller, richer, to the point of almost sounding live. One of the tangueras said that she felt like she was back in BsAs. So I will lug it all down there - 45 miles downvalley.

Reworking my tandas (I use iTunes/playlists) last evening - I decided to go with this structure - 3 song tandas - Tango-Tango-Vals...Tango-Tango-Vals...Tango-Tango-Milonga. In the past, it was always TTVM-TTVM, but I felt there were too many milongas.

Not all of our dancers appreciate or are especially good at milonga. The followers think too much. The leaders don't have it down. So, I keep to slow milongas early in the evening, and then gradually get faster, then to what I call "nuevo" milongas. So I will try this tonight with fewer milongas - I can always throw in more.

I love dancing milonga and somehow "got it" very early on. I wish I could lead tangos like I am able to lead milongas. The faster the milonga, the better, although that usually precludes any traspie, and superfast ochos and ocho cortados become almost impossible to follow in a really fast milonga. The key for followers is not to think. I can tell immediately when a follower is thinking...and I usually whisper in her ear..."don't think...just clear your mind..."

Let me know your thoughts on my new tanda structure...TTV...TTV...TTM...

For your viewing pleasure, Thierry le Coq, with the fastest feet I have seen (Oliver Kolker is a close second)...(Geraldine Rojas would be the fastest follower I have seen, with the ability to throw in traspie embellishments...)



I guess my dry spell is over....

Oh...my...God...! I just watched this in toto again...I forgot about the superfast molinete in this video...amazing!

The song is Francisco Canaro's "No Hay Tierra Como Mia" [1939]...

Aspen Tango

If you haven't already figured it out, I live in Aspen, Colorado and partake of tango (locally) through the Aspen and Glenwood Springs Tango communities.

We had our monthly milonga last night in Glenwood Springs, which coincided with a weekend workshop given by Tom Stermitz (Denver Tango Festivals) of Denver. Tom usually likes to leave early - so I normally DJ after he leaves. Last night, I suppose he was tired, and figured I could handle the DJ'ing just fine, because he didn't show.

I arrived at 8:30, and was trying to pick the lock on the back door of the Masonic Temple (yes, the Masonic Temple), when I realized the lights were on inside and people were busy setting up. For the first hour or so, it was me and one other leader, and about six followers. We finally ended up with about sixteen folks and were fairly balanced, but I was kept pretty busy attending to my responsibilites as a lead in a very small community.

I have actually been going through a state of fairly major flux these past few months (or could it be almost a year?) both in my tango life and my personal/work life. I have vacilated in my desire to dance, mostly because of the lack of good followers to practice with, but also because of lots of bad dances.

As I write this, I recall that it started back in May at the Labor Day Festival in Denver. My daughter graduated from High School that weekend, so I could only attend the Sunday picnic milonga, and then the all nighter. I remember having some fairly unpleasant dances. Mostly due to zero connection, a couple due to extreme apilado by the follower - hanging on me, and a few due to poor choices by me in asking women I didn't know to dance.

Zero Connection::
She danced with her eyes open and I could tell she was scanning the field behind me for other leads to dance with. Lesson Learned:: Never dance with a woman who dances (close embrace) with her eyes open.

Extreme Apilado::
I have actually danced with this California woman before - nice dances. But this time, for some reason, (maybe she was tired) she was hanging on me with what felt like 100% of her weight. I am a big guy, but gawd she was heavy. Most of her weight was on my right arm - this is an ongoing issue for me for some reason. In spite of my attempts to adjust our embrace, she just stayed camped out on me - like some sort of hanging bivouac on the face of El Capitan. My back was tweaked by all this, and I left early in frustration. I think I even decided in that moment to quit tango all together - I reasoned that if I was deriving no pleasure from tango, why continue? It's the old agony vs. the ecstacy issue - I think it's fairly common in the tango world. And, I realize my title "extreme apilado" is not really accurate here...hanging on someone is not the same as "a Gavito" apilado...which is a stylistic choice...

Poor Choices::
I need to be more aware of the level of dance of women before I ask them to dance. If a follower can't execute simple stuff like molinetes (in both directions) and ocho cortados, then I probably shouldn't ask them to dance. Although, there is the "community service dance" responsibility of dancing with less experienced women - which I happily do on occassion - or drop back into if I have not gauged a woman's experience properly - drop back into the connection, musicality, simple walking. I suppose this should not really be an "excuse" for me. I will freely admit - I am one of the worst offenders of dancing with a very short list of women - ultimately I think it has stunted my lead.

Anyway, I got side tracked there...I wanted to talk about the Aspen Tango community...and what it's like to learn tango in a very small and isolated community. You may not realize it, but Aspen is in the middle of the wilderness. They call it a "destination resort". I drove 45 minutes/miles to Glenwood last night to dance...and 45 long minutes back at 2 in the morning. Denver is 3.5 hours away. Santa Fe, where I have been for a workshop and milonga, is the next closest town with tango, and it's a good 6 or 7 hours - and that's when the pass is open. Add an hour and a half in the winter when the pass is closed.

So sixteen last night at the milonga - which I would say is average attendance. A "big" milonga for us is 25 or 30 - which hasn't happened in a while. It will usually coincide with a visiting teacher - Luciano from BsAs or Jaimes Friedgen from Seattle. That number includes pretty much every dancer from Aspen, Glenwood Springs, a few from Grand Junction, Summit County and Denver.

Not that I'm complaining - although it does make the learning process much slower for us - dancing maybe once a month - dancing with the same few partners all the time - it's a nice community, with really nice people.

The gist of all this, is that I had some really nice dances last night...and had "fun"....for the first time in a very long time...and that's what it's all about, right?

Post Script::
Under the "poor choices"...another basic error that tweaks me is the "flying leg ocho"...I can see the woman's leg in my peripheral vision taking a wide swing/trajectory as if I had displaced it, when in fact we are just doing simple ochos...so here it is ladies...step....collect...pivot...WAIT...step... The "collect" and the "wait" may be only a millisecond each, but they are there... ankles together... just passing briefly by... the "wait" is so that you don't block a lead's opportunity to do something... Luiza (of Pulpo & Luiza) is great about emphasizing not defaulting and blocking the leads opportunities to do something else...