I ran across this Tango-L post from Alberto Gesualdi back in 2003.
Bruno wrote:
Milonga is the precursor of Tango these were originally written in a 2 x 4 notation and changed to 4 x 8. The piano scores left from early tangos and milongas proved this point.
Alberto Gesualdi (myself) would like to say this:
It is not very clear the date of start for tango music in Argentina . Some tangos like El Entrerriano are supposed to be from 1896 .
There is sometimes a confusion when using the word milonga , because it is considered as belonging exclusively to tango and being born within the tango environment.
There was a milonga campera or milonga surenia, sung by the peasants whith their guitars. This milonga was usually the same base music, and the changes were made by the singers , with the content of what they say . More or less like bards telling the news or the folklore tradition.
Sebastian Piana [b. circa 1900? d. July 17, 1994] is generally considered as the first musician to write a milonga ciudadana or milonga portenia, in 1932, when he made Milonga Sentimental . I include below part of the last interview made to Piana while he was living. The complete interview is at www.todotango.com.ar
Regarding the milonga subject as well as many other things related to tango , the words "always" . "sure" "certainty" are a bit dangerous to use, since tango origins are still very misty.
Warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires
Interview with Sebastian Piana (fragment) [For entire interview click here.]
- Do you share the opinion, held by the Bates brothers, that tango (in its development as musical genre) takes elements from candombe, the habañera and the milonga?
- Certainly. The habañera was almost the mother of tango. The milonga, on the other hand, belonged to country music, what today is known as folklore. Later the milonga arrived in town, but it was not yet that milonga of which I was the forerunner: it was a rural milonga, sung by gauchos, by that country people that, sometimes, improvised....
- Was it the milonga that Gardel and Razzano sang?
- It was a country milonga, that the Gardel-Razzano duo sang as well. The Argentine and Uruguayan payadores (itinerant singers) that had the ability to improvise lyrics: they were naturally born-poets that, among them, they ad lib rivaled to the beat of a milonga. It would not be strange that the habañera, a Spanish air well-known in Cuba, blended with black music and took advantage of the candombe small drum. Later this spread all over America. All this produces the musical origin of tango in Argentina. But tango is a Spanish word. The tanguillo is a Spanish dance.
- Originally the milonga was a music for strings, was percussion added in Cuba?
- I guess so. The Negroes, that have a great intuition and a rhythmic sense, made "their" habañera. This seems to have spread throughout America. That would be the origin of the early tango beat.
- Can we talk of a " Piana's Revolution " as far as milonga is concerned?
- It is, simply, the change from a milonga -which was regarded as belonging to the south and the Pampas, without dance or danced in privacy, and dug by gauchos and payadores-, to the milonga porteña , owed to Maffia and to me. They were melodically quite alike.
The renewal, the porteña and suburban milonga, is owed to a request made by Rosita Quiroga to Homero Manzi. We had given to her a tango that she would sing. However, she asked for a milonga.
Astonished, Manzi told me; "Rosita asked me a milonga". I answered him: but if all milongas are nearly the same thing, very much alike, because of that people improvise on them...."Look, Sebastian, I don't understand anything about milongas", Manzi answered to me. Then I told Homero that he should call me in two days, to see if I was able to devise something. During that time I had in my head the idea of a new milonga. I knew its beat because I had written a previous one so that Josi Gonzalez Castillo (Catulo Castillo's father) would write lyrics to it.
I had the need to make different milongas; and these were: they kept the simplicity of the beat, but with a defined musical shape, as if they were tangos to be sung, but without losing the milonga's essence.
When Manzi called me, precisely in two days' time, I already have composed "Milonga Sentimental", whose music only took me half an hour (the one I had prepared for Gonzalez Castillo's milonga had taken me a whole day). It was not the everlasting milonga, the one improvised by the payadores...
As Manzi, a magnificent poet, confessed to me that he did not understand about milongas, I thought for myself: will he understand mine? He understood it. He arrived to my place on a Monday, he picked up the sheet music and, the next morning, he had the lyric already written. With the lyrics added I began to like the music more. Until then I was more satisfied with the one I had made for Gonzalez Castillo.
So "Milonga Sentimental" was born. It was my second milonga, which turned out to be the first milonga porteña known.
- Catulo's father, finally did he add lyrics to your first milonga?
- No, no. It seems he forgot about it (laughs). He was a great friend of mine and of my father's.
For the complete interview, click here.
Showing posts with label "Tango-L". Show all posts
Showing posts with label "Tango-L". Show all posts
Tuesday, November 10, 2009
Tuesday, February 26, 2008
On Tango :: Traditional vs. Nuevo Debate
I've deliberately tried to stay away from this subject (I think), because ultimately I think the debate is going nowhere. As such, it (the debate) is counter-productive to the dance.
But...Ron of the Tango Society of Central Illinois Tango a great one on Tango-L - a lucid explanation of the differences and the conflicts between the two forms.
Message: 16
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 22:45:26 -0600
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois"
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Posting & open discussion on Tango-
To: "thorn-inside@hotmail.com"
Cc: tango-l
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 2/22/08, thorn-inside@hotmail.com wrote:
> It appears to me that there is a strongly held opinion among many on this
> list that tango music from the golden age is the only acceptable dance
> music, and that "milonguero" style is the only acceptable social dance
> style, and that any other style of either music or dance is not tango.
The situation is a bit more complex. Porten~os recognize a type of
tango that is danced at milongas (generally called 'tango de salon')
and another type of tango that is danced for exhibition, either on the
stage or as a preformance that might occur at an intermission during a
milonga. These are recognized as separate, just as Carlos Gardel's
tangos (and later Piazzolla's) were recognized as not for dancing
(because of their musical qualities), and D'arienzo, Di Sarli, Canaro,
etc. were for dancing. Tango has expressed itself over time in several
different ways that are all recognized as 'tango', as part of an
intertwined culture with a common origin.
At milongas in Buenos Aires today, virtually all porten~os dance in a
close embrace.The actual form of the embrace varies somewhat in
orientation (directly in front vs. somewhat offset, with various
angles of 'lean' of the partners' frames). What has been called
'milonguero style', with an 'apilado' posture, represents one
variation of this embrace. There are some neighborhood differences in
the proportion of dancers who assume a particular embrace, but in
reality there is a continuum of characteristics of the embrace in the
dancing population rather than 2 distinct 'styles', with some of the
variation due to anatomy, experience, and skill level.
The tango music played at Buenos Aires milongas is almost always
classic tango from the 30s, 40s, and possibly 50s. The only exception
I have ever experienced is La Viruta, which is a very different kind
of gathering of young people lacking many of the qualities of
traditional milongas, which predominate. A porten~a with a lot of
dance experience told me La Viruta is considered an 'entry level
milonga', from which dancers graduate to more traditional milongas if
they are serious about tango. The practicas such as those at Villa
Malcolm and Practica X are different. They are not considered
milongas. Read what Andres Amarilla, an instructor of 'tango nuevo'
says about the difference between nuevo practicas and milongas in
Buenos Aires. In Buenos Aires, these are distinct.
http://www.andresamarilla.com/theguide.htm
There is a difference outside of Argentina, where 'tango de salon' and
some variations of tango for exhibition may both be danced at events
that are called 'milongas'. In addition there are 'alternative
milongas' where non-tango music is played for dancing. The
estblishment of performance oriented tango at milongas outside
Argentina had its start because the first instructors of tango outside
Argentina were usually from stage performance companies. Only after
non-Argentines went to Buenos Aires to visit milongas did they see
that the manner of dancing tango at milongas in Buenos Aires is
different. This led to several non-Argentines and later Argentines
teaching 'tango milonguero' or 'tango de salon' outside Argentina.
Thus, the transmission of Buenos Aires tango culture to foreign
nations has been inaccurate. The separation of tango for exhibiiton
and tango for social dancing was lost. Both types of dancing are
'tango', but in Buenos Aires only the close emrbace 'tango de salon'
is danced at milongas.
Cultures outside Argentina are free to adapt tango for their own
cultural tastes. Apparently the most prominent example of this
worldwide is Finnish tango.
The conflict that often occurs is between those who want to create a
Buenos Aires tango de salon environment at milongas outside Argentina,
and other people from within these non-Argentina cultures who want to
adapt tango to their cultural preferences.
In my opinion, those who wish to adapt tango to their own cultural
preferences should try to understand those of us who would like to
adopt the Argentine characteristics of tango as closely as is possible
in our milongas. We are trying to connect with the Argentine tango
culture. I fail to see why such frequent and intense criticism is
directed at those of us who have this preference.
My complaint with the predominant tango culture (performance oriented)
outside Argentina is not that it exists, that that it often fails to
respect the atmosphere social tango dancers wish to create, both on
and off the floor.
Ron
End of Tango-L Post
My only issue with nuevo is that it is not tango....(grin)...kidding...
My only issue with nuevo is the respect issue - ~~R E S P E C T~~ - respect for the music/musicality; respect for your partner, her axis, her safety; respect for the line of dance/ronda, his space on the floor, the dancers around you, floorcraft, dancefloor etiquette; respect for technique and hard work; and lastly, respect for the origins, traditions and history of tango.
Many (not all) nuevo dancers are oblivious to these concepts - and are out there dancing a "performance" - and endangering the rest of us.
There is a place for nuevo...but I, like Ron in his post, believe it should be a separate place.
But...Ron of the Tango Society of Central Illinois Tango a great one on Tango-L - a lucid explanation of the differences and the conflicts between the two forms.
Message: 16
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 22:45:26 -0600
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois"
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Posting & open discussion on Tango-
To: "thorn-inside@hotmail.com"
Cc: tango-l
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 2/22/08, thorn-inside@hotmail.com
> It appears to me that there is a strongly held opinion among many on this
> list that tango music from the golden age is the only acceptable dance
> music, and that "milonguero" style is the only acceptable social dance
> style, and that any other style of either music or dance is not tango.
The situation is a bit more complex. Porten~os recognize a type of
tango that is danced at milongas (generally called 'tango de salon')
and another type of tango that is danced for exhibition, either on the
stage or as a preformance that might occur at an intermission during a
milonga. These are recognized as separate, just as Carlos Gardel's
tangos (and later Piazzolla's) were recognized as not for dancing
(because of their musical qualities), and D'arienzo, Di Sarli, Canaro,
etc. were for dancing. Tango has expressed itself over time in several
different ways that are all recognized as 'tango', as part of an
intertwined culture with a common origin.
At milongas in Buenos Aires today, virtually all porten~os dance in a
close embrace.The actual form of the embrace varies somewhat in
orientation (directly in front vs. somewhat offset, with various
angles of 'lean' of the partners' frames). What has been called
'milonguero style', with an 'apilado' posture, represents one
variation of this embrace. There are some neighborhood differences in
the proportion of dancers who assume a particular embrace, but in
reality there is a continuum of characteristics of the embrace in the
dancing population rather than 2 distinct 'styles', with some of the
variation due to anatomy, experience, and skill level.
The tango music played at Buenos Aires milongas is almost always
classic tango from the 30s, 40s, and possibly 50s. The only exception
I have ever experienced is La Viruta, which is a very different kind
of gathering of young people lacking many of the qualities of
traditional milongas, which predominate. A porten~a with a lot of
dance experience told me La Viruta is considered an 'entry level
milonga', from which dancers graduate to more traditional milongas if
they are serious about tango. The practicas such as those at Villa
Malcolm and Practica X are different. They are not considered
milongas. Read what Andres Amarilla, an instructor of 'tango nuevo'
says about the difference between nuevo practicas and milongas in
Buenos Aires. In Buenos Aires, these are distinct.
http://www.andresamarilla.com/theguide.htm
There is a difference outside of Argentina, where 'tango de salon' and
some variations of tango for exhibition may both be danced at events
that are called 'milongas'. In addition there are 'alternative
milongas' where non-tango music is played for dancing. The
estblishment of performance oriented tango at milongas outside
Argentina had its start because the first instructors of tango outside
Argentina were usually from stage performance companies. Only after
non-Argentines went to Buenos Aires to visit milongas did they see
that the manner of dancing tango at milongas in Buenos Aires is
different. This led to several non-Argentines and later Argentines
teaching 'tango milonguero' or 'tango de salon' outside Argentina.
Thus, the transmission of Buenos Aires tango culture to foreign
nations has been inaccurate. The separation of tango for exhibiiton
and tango for social dancing was lost. Both types of dancing are
'tango', but in Buenos Aires only the close emrbace 'tango de salon'
is danced at milongas.
Cultures outside Argentina are free to adapt tango for their own
cultural tastes. Apparently the most prominent example of this
worldwide is Finnish tango.
The conflict that often occurs is between those who want to create a
Buenos Aires tango de salon environment at milongas outside Argentina,
and other people from within these non-Argentina cultures who want to
adapt tango to their cultural preferences.
In my opinion, those who wish to adapt tango to their own cultural
preferences should try to understand those of us who would like to
adopt the Argentine characteristics of tango as closely as is possible
in our milongas. We are trying to connect with the Argentine tango
culture. I fail to see why such frequent and intense criticism is
directed at those of us who have this preference.
My complaint with the predominant tango culture (performance oriented)
outside Argentina is not that it exists, that that it often fails to
respect the atmosphere social tango dancers wish to create, both on
and off the floor.
Ron
End of Tango-L Post
My only issue with nuevo is that it is not tango....(grin)...kidding...
My only issue with nuevo is the respect issue - ~~R E S P E C T~~ - respect for the music/musicality; respect for your partner, her axis, her safety; respect for the line of dance/ronda, his space on the floor, the dancers around you, floorcraft, dancefloor etiquette; respect for technique and hard work; and lastly, respect for the origins, traditions and history of tango.
Many (not all) nuevo dancers are oblivious to these concepts - and are out there dancing a "performance" - and endangering the rest of us.
There is a place for nuevo...but I, like Ron in his post, believe it should be a separate place.
Friday, October 5, 2007
To dance or not to dance...brutally...
I just got back from doing my solo tango workout and practice. This is what we have to resort to in a resort town with an extremely small tango community. A friend of mine jokes with me about my "air tango", but, it's better than nothing. He and I are the only ones that I know of who practice solo on occasion.
So, I'm back here reading Tango-L about retaining men in Tango, and women getting dances. I thought I would write about why I invite women to dance, and why I don't.
1] First and foremost, I am a tall guy - easily 6'4" with my tango shoes on. So, I have some issues with shorter women and with taller women. Dancing with shorter women tends to tweak my lower back - an issue with my lead. I have started dancing more open embrace with shorter women to compensate. Taller women, when the top of their head reaches my eye level, then I have a blind spot to my right. I find this to be limiting to my lead. Final point - it is very difficult if not impossible to determine how tall a woman is when she is sitting down. So, I invite more women in the 5'4" to 5'-9" range.
2] I am a big guy - sometimes I feel like a giant. When I see photos of myself on the dance floor, I dwarf all of the other people. Perhaps this is a self image thing, but the reality is that I am built like a linebacker or a fullback. 6'3" 225lbs. Given this, I tend to avoid women who are very slightly built. There is a particular follower - beautiful woman and beautiful dancer - but she is so slight, I feel like I am going to break her sometimes. So, I tend to not invite very tiny women.
3] I find women who have thier own gravitational pull difficult to lead. I'm getting better at leading these types of celestial bodies - but sometimes it feels like I am trying to navigate the fully loaded Exxon Valdez through the straits while intoxicated. I tend to not invite women who have their own gravitational pull.
4] I never refuse an invitation from any woman. (Okay, there are one or two who constantly bug me to dance, and I always decline politely, because it is downright unpleasant to dance with them.)
5] When a woman smiles or better yet, smiles AND says "hi" or something, she is guaranteed to get an invitation, no matter what her dancing ability.
6] I lost my tango. At one milonga, I literally "lost my tango". I don't know if it was because I was tired, or what. I did turn down a few invitations - not wishing to subject any woman to a poor/non-existent lead. I didn't make any lame excuses with these women - I literally told them that I was no longer dancing because I lost my tango.
7] If a woman back-leads or gives me "tips", I won't invite her.
8] I realize this is starting to sound negative, but I don't know how to say it otherwise. If a woman is overly embellish-ey, especially if she does embellishments which are meant to be lead, without the lead, all by herself, I don't invite.
9] If a woman is a frequent leader (in a social/milonga setting), I generally don't invite. I don't get that, sorry...
10] Women who dance (close embrace) with their eyes open, scanning the room for potential leads, cannot, in any way shape or form, be "present" in the moment of dancing with me. I will not invite.
11] Women who can't keep their axis and lean on me too much don't get invited.
12] Women who are too "hippy" (motion) and "sway-ey". This can be described as trying to push a wheelbarrow with a top heavy load that is shifting back and forth.
13] Women who are obviously dancers/athletes/athletic/yoginis/fit tend to be more responsive - lighter on their feet - ball bearings under their forefeet - more reaction and energy - (Read my post titled "Fuck me back") tend to get more invites. I find women who are the opposite of this tend to be "mushy" feeling - like I am dancing with "The Blob". Just being brutally honest here...
14] Some really advanced women who I don't feel my lead is up to snuff. It's an insecurity intimidation thing.
15] The followers/wives/partners of tango teaching couples...in spite of #14 above, I always ask them to dance, because often it seems no one else does.
16] If a woman is overweight, not-so-attractive, just an okay dancer, but "nice", she will win out any night over a beautiful tango diva who is the best dancer in the room, but a "catty bitch" who knows she is the bestdancerbeautifultangodiva in the room. Nice-ness, smiles, eye contact, humility - these are the qualities that get me every time.
17] Timing, hesitation, poorly executed cabeceo, missed opportunities, interlopers, usurpers, bathroom breaks, refreshment breaks, sore feet, etc. all combine to create many missed invites... Tango interupptus...
To sum up.... smile, make eye contact, say "hi", make yourself available, be polite/nice/notabitchysnob, smell good, shampoo your hair.... and... wearing Comme il Faut's helps too... goofy ballroomy shoes are a turnoff... get rid of them...
Okay... I gotta go dancing now... I gotta... tomorrow night...Denver... The Mercury Cafe...it's been too long... my last "big city" milonga was... last May in Denver?... no, one in July in Atlanta... too long...
So, I'm back here reading Tango-L about retaining men in Tango, and women getting dances. I thought I would write about why I invite women to dance, and why I don't.
1] First and foremost, I am a tall guy - easily 6'4" with my tango shoes on. So, I have some issues with shorter women and with taller women. Dancing with shorter women tends to tweak my lower back - an issue with my lead. I have started dancing more open embrace with shorter women to compensate. Taller women, when the top of their head reaches my eye level, then I have a blind spot to my right. I find this to be limiting to my lead. Final point - it is very difficult if not impossible to determine how tall a woman is when she is sitting down. So, I invite more women in the 5'4" to 5'-9" range.
2] I am a big guy - sometimes I feel like a giant. When I see photos of myself on the dance floor, I dwarf all of the other people. Perhaps this is a self image thing, but the reality is that I am built like a linebacker or a fullback. 6'3" 225lbs. Given this, I tend to avoid women who are very slightly built. There is a particular follower - beautiful woman and beautiful dancer - but she is so slight, I feel like I am going to break her sometimes. So, I tend to not invite very tiny women.
3] I find women who have thier own gravitational pull difficult to lead. I'm getting better at leading these types of celestial bodies - but sometimes it feels like I am trying to navigate the fully loaded Exxon Valdez through the straits while intoxicated. I tend to not invite women who have their own gravitational pull.
4] I never refuse an invitation from any woman. (Okay, there are one or two who constantly bug me to dance, and I always decline politely, because it is downright unpleasant to dance with them.)
5] When a woman smiles or better yet, smiles AND says "hi" or something, she is guaranteed to get an invitation, no matter what her dancing ability.
6] I lost my tango. At one milonga, I literally "lost my tango". I don't know if it was because I was tired, or what. I did turn down a few invitations - not wishing to subject any woman to a poor/non-existent lead. I didn't make any lame excuses with these women - I literally told them that I was no longer dancing because I lost my tango.
7] If a woman back-leads or gives me "tips", I won't invite her.
8] I realize this is starting to sound negative, but I don't know how to say it otherwise. If a woman is overly embellish-ey, especially if she does embellishments which are meant to be lead, without the lead, all by herself, I don't invite.
9] If a woman is a frequent leader (in a social/milonga setting), I generally don't invite. I don't get that, sorry...
10] Women who dance (close embrace) with their eyes open, scanning the room for potential leads, cannot, in any way shape or form, be "present" in the moment of dancing with me. I will not invite.
11] Women who can't keep their axis and lean on me too much don't get invited.
12] Women who are too "hippy" (motion) and "sway-ey". This can be described as trying to push a wheelbarrow with a top heavy load that is shifting back and forth.
13] Women who are obviously dancers/athletes/athletic/yoginis/fit tend to be more responsive - lighter on their feet - ball bearings under their forefeet - more reaction and energy - (Read my post titled "Fuck me back") tend to get more invites. I find women who are the opposite of this tend to be "mushy" feeling - like I am dancing with "The Blob". Just being brutally honest here...
14] Some really advanced women who I don't feel my lead is up to snuff. It's an insecurity intimidation thing.
15] The followers/wives/partners of tango teaching couples...in spite of #14 above, I always ask them to dance, because often it seems no one else does.
16] If a woman is overweight, not-so-attractive, just an okay dancer, but "nice", she will win out any night over a beautiful tango diva who is the best dancer in the room, but a "catty bitch" who knows she is the bestdancerbeautifultangodiva in the room. Nice-ness, smiles, eye contact, humility - these are the qualities that get me every time.
17] Timing, hesitation, poorly executed cabeceo, missed opportunities, interlopers, usurpers, bathroom breaks, refreshment breaks, sore feet, etc. all combine to create many missed invites... Tango interupptus...
To sum up.... smile, make eye contact, say "hi", make yourself available, be polite/nice/notabitchysnob, smell good, shampoo your hair.... and... wearing Comme il Faut's helps too... goofy ballroomy shoes are a turnoff... get rid of them...
Okay... I gotta go dancing now... I gotta... tomorrow night...Denver... The Mercury Cafe...it's been too long... my last "big city" milonga was... last May in Denver?... no, one in July in Atlanta... too long...
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